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	<title>Comments on: Pickup Line Quagmire in Massachusetts</title>
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	<description>Occasionally irreverent thoughts on law, liberty, tech, and politics</description>
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		<title>By: No, I did not Author any Questions on the MBE &#171; The Legal Satyricon</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-7180</link>
		<dc:creator>No, I did not Author any Questions on the MBE &#171; The Legal Satyricon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-7180</guid>
		<description>[...] fact pattern might sound awfully familiar to anyone who read Pickup Line Quagmire in Massachusetts. However, no, I do not draft MBE questions. Nevertheless, at least I know this much &#8212; loyal [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] fact pattern might sound awfully familiar to anyone who read Pickup Line Quagmire in Massachusetts. However, no, I do not draft MBE questions. Nevertheless, at least I know this much &#8212; loyal [...]</p>
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		<title>By: &#8220;Intentional sex torts&#8221; &#171; The Legal Satyricon</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-5972</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;Intentional sex torts&#8221; &#171; The Legal Satyricon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 20:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5972</guid>
		<description>[...] Pollard Sacks discusses the &#8220;fraudulent inducement of sex&#8221; issue. (Discussed here in Pickup Line Quagmire in Massachusetts, March 10, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Pollard Sacks discusses the &#8220;fraudulent inducement of sex&#8221; issue. (Discussed here in Pickup Line Quagmire in Massachusetts, March 10, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: holleratyaboi</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-5534</link>
		<dc:creator>holleratyaboi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 04:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5534</guid>
		<description>Also,

If the pharmacist didn&#039;t have intercourse with the women, but just posed as an ob/gyn and conducted a fake medical procedure, a number of states have criminalized using a medical position/the appearance of a medical position for nefarious purposes, with much more narrow language than the statute listed above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also,</p>
<p>If the pharmacist didn&#8217;t have intercourse with the women, but just posed as an ob/gyn and conducted a fake medical procedure, a number of states have criminalized using a medical position/the appearance of a medical position for nefarious purposes, with much more narrow language than the statute listed above.</p>
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		<title>By: holleratyaboi</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-5533</link>
		<dc:creator>holleratyaboi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 04:29:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5533</guid>
		<description>i just got to rape in criminal law. there are two types of fraud: (1) fraud in factum and (2) fraud in the inducement

Fraud in factum is where the fraud involves concealing the nature of the contact so the victim doesn&#039;t know sex is happening (like the pharmacist posing as an ob/gyn.)

Fraud in the inducement is where someone knows sex is happening but the sexual act has been induced by fraud. (there was a case where someone purported to have a bloodtest showing the victim had a disease, he had a donor who had been injected with a serum, and by sexing the donor she would be cured.)

Fraud in factum is typically rape in a lot of places already, and would cover the situation with the pharmacist, and there is a typical statutory line which says that sex induced by pretending to be a husband is also rape. The Mass Legislature could fix the loophole that allowed these two cases by extending the husband fraud to include boyfriends and by saying that fraud in factum is rape. The Legislature could do all this without messing up our lying games. I doubt this article was written by a lawyer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i just got to rape in criminal law. there are two types of fraud: (1) fraud in factum and (2) fraud in the inducement</p>
<p>Fraud in factum is where the fraud involves concealing the nature of the contact so the victim doesn&#8217;t know sex is happening (like the pharmacist posing as an ob/gyn.)</p>
<p>Fraud in the inducement is where someone knows sex is happening but the sexual act has been induced by fraud. (there was a case where someone purported to have a bloodtest showing the victim had a disease, he had a donor who had been injected with a serum, and by sexing the donor she would be cured.)</p>
<p>Fraud in factum is typically rape in a lot of places already, and would cover the situation with the pharmacist, and there is a typical statutory line which says that sex induced by pretending to be a husband is also rape. The Mass Legislature could fix the loophole that allowed these two cases by extending the husband fraud to include boyfriends and by saying that fraud in factum is rape. The Legislature could do all this without messing up our lying games. I doubt this article was written by a lawyer.</p>
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		<title>By: markm</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-5475</link>
		<dc:creator>markm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:31:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5475</guid>
		<description>MsFeasance: A woman can prove that she obtained a prescription and bought the Pills. Even if she threw away the receipt, the pharmacist has to keep records that can be subpoenad. I&#039;d take that as sufficient evidence, short of positive evidence that she didn&#039;t take the Pill even though she had them (an admission, an unopened pill bottle, or unused pills found in the trash). And occasionally forgetting to take the pill on schedule - which I think is by far the usual cause of &quot;failures&quot; - isn&#039;t fraud.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MsFeasance: A woman can prove that she obtained a prescription and bought the Pills. Even if she threw away the receipt, the pharmacist has to keep records that can be subpoenad. I&#8217;d take that as sufficient evidence, short of positive evidence that she didn&#8217;t take the Pill even though she had them (an admission, an unopened pill bottle, or unused pills found in the trash). And occasionally forgetting to take the pill on schedule &#8211; which I think is by far the usual cause of &#8220;failures&#8221; &#8211; isn&#8217;t fraud.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-5395</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5395</guid>
		<description>Nevermind.  I see -- the court is moronic.  I&#039;m sorry, but Goldenberg so clearly does not apply to this case.  And besides that, rape is just sex against someone&#039;s will.  Apparently this &quot;by force and against their will&quot; language goes way back, but why must the &quot;by force&quot; be included?  Why can&#039;t it just be &quot;against their will&quot;.  In the case of Goldenberg, he clearly did not compel her against her will to have sex with him since she explicitly consents to the act as a sex act and to having that act with him.  Had he said something like &quot;I&#039;m not having sex with you -- this is a new procedure where I use my penis,&quot; then stupid though she may be, that would be against her will.  In other words, the pharmacists doing exams scenario is against the women&#039;s wills since they think it is nonsexual and it clearly is being done for purely sexual reasons.  The brother posing as a boyfriend is clearly also against the woman&#039;s will since he is just using her consent to having sex with the boyfriend as a means to cause her to have sex with him instead.  

It seems like most other places in the western world do include fraud in the &quot;by force&quot; language.  Mass is just wacked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nevermind.  I see &#8212; the court is moronic.  I&#8217;m sorry, but Goldenberg so clearly does not apply to this case.  And besides that, rape is just sex against someone&#8217;s will.  Apparently this &#8220;by force and against their will&#8221; language goes way back, but why must the &#8220;by force&#8221; be included?  Why can&#8217;t it just be &#8220;against their will&#8221;.  In the case of Goldenberg, he clearly did not compel her against her will to have sex with him since she explicitly consents to the act as a sex act and to having that act with him.  Had he said something like &#8220;I&#8217;m not having sex with you &#8212; this is a new procedure where I use my penis,&#8221; then stupid though she may be, that would be against her will.  In other words, the pharmacists doing exams scenario is against the women&#8217;s wills since they think it is nonsexual and it clearly is being done for purely sexual reasons.  The brother posing as a boyfriend is clearly also against the woman&#8217;s will since he is just using her consent to having sex with the boyfriend as a means to cause her to have sex with him instead.  </p>
<p>It seems like most other places in the western world do include fraud in the &#8220;by force&#8221; language.  Mass is just wacked.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-5394</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5394</guid>
		<description>I just don&#039;t see how these aren&#039;t already rape or whatever they would be.  I&#039;ll confess that I don&#039;t really know the law, but something like this has never happened before?  Look, if some guy dresses up in a Mission Impossible costume and looks and sounds just like my brother so I hand him the keys to my car, then when he drives away, isn&#039;t that still stealing?  Maybe it is technically something else under the law?  Surely you can&#039;t say &quot;But, you consented to him taking the car because you gave him the keys, after all.&quot;  

I don&#039;t see why you need special laws.  It just seems to me that perhaps she has a harder case to prove, maybe, but given that she really can prove that she was tricked into having sex with a man she did not want to have sex with, then she is still being forced to have sex with someone against her will.  Instead of normal physical force, it is by means of deception, but that never makes a difference in any other case like stealing my car or something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just don&#8217;t see how these aren&#8217;t already rape or whatever they would be.  I&#8217;ll confess that I don&#8217;t really know the law, but something like this has never happened before?  Look, if some guy dresses up in a Mission Impossible costume and looks and sounds just like my brother so I hand him the keys to my car, then when he drives away, isn&#8217;t that still stealing?  Maybe it is technically something else under the law?  Surely you can&#8217;t say &#8220;But, you consented to him taking the car because you gave him the keys, after all.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see why you need special laws.  It just seems to me that perhaps she has a harder case to prove, maybe, but given that she really can prove that she was tricked into having sex with a man she did not want to have sex with, then she is still being forced to have sex with someone against her will.  Instead of normal physical force, it is by means of deception, but that never makes a difference in any other case like stealing my car or something.</p>
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		<title>By: marcorandazza</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-5393</link>
		<dc:creator>marcorandazza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5393</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Your criticism of my point of view is well taken and fair.  

Perhaps I was a bit too gullible. &lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Your criticism of my point of view is well taken and fair.  </p>
<p>Perhaps I was a bit too gullible. </b></p>
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		<title>By: Richard Belzer</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-5390</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Belzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 14:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5390</guid>
		<description>I appreciate your charity, but I think it&#039;s misplaced. It&#039;s always risky to believe what you read in the paper because every user of the First Amendment has an agenda. It is especially troublesome when public policy is driven by mere anecdote. In this case, even the anecdote  cannot be verified.

In your post you said the author of the bill had his heart in the right place. Would it change your mind if it turned out that the reason these guys couldn&#039;t be prosecuted is that the victims were not blameless, not credible as witnesses, or unwilling to testify publicly?  When people say they seek &quot;justice,&quot; sometimes what they really want is &quot;vengeance.&quot; 

I&#039;m no taking sides here. I am saying that perhaps you should not, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate your charity, but I think it&#8217;s misplaced. It&#8217;s always risky to believe what you read in the paper because every user of the First Amendment has an agenda. It is especially troublesome when public policy is driven by mere anecdote. In this case, even the anecdote  cannot be verified.</p>
<p>In your post you said the author of the bill had his heart in the right place. Would it change your mind if it turned out that the reason these guys couldn&#8217;t be prosecuted is that the victims were not blameless, not credible as witnesses, or unwilling to testify publicly?  When people say they seek &#8220;justice,&#8221; sometimes what they really want is &#8220;vengeance.&#8221; </p>
<p>I&#8217;m no taking sides here. I am saying that perhaps you should not, either.</p>
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		<title>By: marcorandazza</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-5387</link>
		<dc:creator>marcorandazza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 12:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5387</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;I haven&#039;t dug deeply into the two cases.  You are correct.  Perhaps the claims were not at all credible, but I am giving the victims the benefit of the doubt.  &lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>I haven&#8217;t dug deeply into the two cases.  You are correct.  Perhaps the claims were not at all credible, but I am giving the victims the benefit of the doubt.  </b></p>
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		<title>By: Richard Belzer</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-5386</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Belzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 12:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5386</guid>
		<description>It is the curse of law school education to believe that the law can prevent or redress all the perils of life. TV law dramas and slip-and-fall lawyer ads spread the disease to the public at large.

You&#039;ve surely abbreviated the facts of the two cases. How is it that the claims of the perpetrators were believed by the victims to be credible?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is the curse of law school education to believe that the law can prevent or redress all the perils of life. TV law dramas and slip-and-fall lawyer ads spread the disease to the public at large.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve surely abbreviated the facts of the two cases. How is it that the claims of the perpetrators were believed by the victims to be credible?</p>
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		<title>By: tomoconnor</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-5375</link>
		<dc:creator>tomoconnor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 20:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5375</guid>
		<description>Lawyers leave it them to make this so obtuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lawyers leave it them to make this so obtuse.</p>
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		<title>By: mlabossi</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-5374</link>
		<dc:creator>mlabossi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 20:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5374</guid>
		<description>I would be a bit surprised if the law passed. It is rather vague in its wording and the punishment proposed (&quot;life or any term of years&quot;) seems rather extreme. But, then again, there are actual laws that are as defective.

The problem with the law as stated, is that (as people have pointed out) it leads to absurd results. If any such deception, etc. counts as rape, then far too much would count as rape. If we use societal norms, then (as was pointed out) the cases in question would probably not fall under the law. The first case would probably fall under any laws governing  that sort of &quot;medical fraud.&quot;

So, if the existing laws are not adequate, then a better law than this would be needed.

http://aphilosopher.wordpress.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would be a bit surprised if the law passed. It is rather vague in its wording and the punishment proposed (&#8220;life or any term of years&#8221;) seems rather extreme. But, then again, there are actual laws that are as defective.</p>
<p>The problem with the law as stated, is that (as people have pointed out) it leads to absurd results. If any such deception, etc. counts as rape, then far too much would count as rape. If we use societal norms, then (as was pointed out) the cases in question would probably not fall under the law. The first case would probably fall under any laws governing  that sort of &#8220;medical fraud.&#8221;</p>
<p>So, if the existing laws are not adequate, then a better law than this would be needed.</p>
<p><a href="http://aphilosopher.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">http://aphilosopher.wordpress.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: janetblank</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-5372</link>
		<dc:creator>janetblank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 18:11:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5372</guid>
		<description>This is the whole &quot;fraud in the inducement&quot; issue.  I can&#039;t remember the case name (1L is a long time ago folks) but there was a guy who didn&#039;t get convicted of rape for calling up women and telling them that the tests were back from their PAP smear, that they had a disease, and that the only cure was to have sex with a man who would transmit it to them...vaginally...in his hotel room.  The judge determined that the women consented to sex with this man, and his use of a deceitful pickup line was essentially no different from making claims of non-existent finances, for example.  I think this law is designed for the &quot;cure is in my pants&quot; guy for sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the whole &#8220;fraud in the inducement&#8221; issue.  I can&#8217;t remember the case name (1L is a long time ago folks) but there was a guy who didn&#8217;t get convicted of rape for calling up women and telling them that the tests were back from their PAP smear, that they had a disease, and that the only cure was to have sex with a man who would transmit it to them&#8230;vaginally&#8230;in his hotel room.  The judge determined that the women consented to sex with this man, and his use of a deceitful pickup line was essentially no different from making claims of non-existent finances, for example.  I think this law is designed for the &#8220;cure is in my pants&#8221; guy for sure.</p>
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		<title>By: marcorandazza</title>
		<link>http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/watch-those-pickup-lines/#comment-5363</link>
		<dc:creator>marcorandazza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://randazza.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5363</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;There is yet another weakness in this foolish legislation, eh?&lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>There is yet another weakness in this foolish legislation, eh?</b></p>
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